Steve “Double SS” Smoger: The 2015 International Boxing Hall of Fame Inducted Referee in His Own Words

Exclusive Interview by Jesse “New School” Wright

“I just saw how much effort they put in, and I said, I am going to give them every opportunity to resolve the fight among themselves. Let them determine their own outcome”—Steve “Double SS” Smoger

The role of a referee in boxing is emotionally complex in ways that many of us could never understand. The referee’s responsibility is an ongoing confliction between giving a fighter a chance to progress his career and knowing when to save him from himself. Steve “Double SS” Smoger opens up and explains the emotional tribulation of what it means to be a referee. He’s forgotten more than most of us have learned and his knowledge of the sport is nearly unmatched in every facet.

His passion to share knowledge of boxing shows is fascinating. He is an open book that is rich with a treasure-trove of information. He is a 2015 International Boxing Hall of Fame inductee with the second most fights under his belt of any referee at 950. He’s considered by many to be the greatest referee of all time. This is Steve “Double SS” Smoger in his own words.

JW: Thank you for taking the time to talk to me.

My pleasure, “Bad” Brad is  very close to me and he suggested that you and I talk. You are very welcome.

JW: First off, I want to congratulate you. 2015 was a big year for you; you received a well deserved validation by being inducted in to the International Boxing Hall of Fame. It means a lot to the boxing community, but I know that it means a lot to you too.

I appreciate that. It is a major crowning achievement that I’m very proud of. As I mentioned to Brad, I was just happy to be nominated. To achieve that recognition on the first ballot was very meaningful.

JW: I’ve actually listened to your interview with “Bad” Brad two times over now. It was a real history lesson and it was very insightful. My questions won’t be as similar to Brad’s. Brad’s a true historian, and the interview between you two was an amazing history lesson. As the guy known as “New School,” I want to show the newer generations of boxing fans who you are MR Smoger.

Call me Steve. This is the Clash of the Titans because in every facet of the game, I would be considered old school (both laugh), so this introduction to the kids is worthwhile.

JW: I don’t know if you read what they say on the internet, but if you look at the message boards, you’re kind of a legend to the younger generations. In the internet era it’s very hard, especially in boxing, to make a name and not get ripped apart. There’s always somebody who has something negative to say.

Oh boy… yeah…

JW: But, if you Google yourself, they refer to you as the greatest ref ever, a golden God, I mean it’s almost over the top, but it’s all very positive.

It’s nice to hear. I’ll tell you Jesse; because the one item that really will get ya… I mean you don’t want to have rabbit ears and you don’t want to have thin skin, but you get a couple of guys that continually… you know, I’ve now done 950 bouts in 33 years. I’m second in the history of the fight game in number of bouts by a referee past and present. The one referee that has completed more bouts than I is a dear friend by the name of Mike England who works primarily in central USA, primarily Missouri, Kansas and such. The difference being I was pressed for work out there on many major shows in St. Louis, during the height of Devon Alexander and a few other notables out there. In those fight cards, Michael would get assigned to a fight card, he’ll be the only referee and he’ll do 10 4s (four round matches). In one evening, he’s done what I would’ve done in a month. You know?

If you work in New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Connecticut circuit, there may be seven bouts, you’re with a brother referee or sister referee and it would be six bouts split down the middle. So you would do (fights) 1, 3, 5 and I would do 2, 4, 6. So that’s how Mike’s numbers exceeded mine. When it comes to world title fights, I have way more than what Mike achieved; because those are the venues I work in. I say that because you’ll get one writer, with one bout where you might have been a tad late or something, they’ll find something, and they don’t give credit to the other 949 that you’ve done. It’s amazing! That’s gotta be my pet peeve, how they hone in (on just one fight), but I guess that’s what sells and being nice and commending someone doesn’t sell ads on the internet. It’s nice to hear that I’m thought of well in those terms.

JW: Yes sir. My first question is something I’m still trying to understand and I think there are many who are curious about it as well. There’s a concept I heard, I believe it was first from Max Kellerman, of an east coast and a west coast referee. Is this a concept that referees recognize and can you elaborate on what it means?

You know, I really don’t see it. My dear friend who would be the epitome of the quote “west coast referee” is Jack Reiss. Jack and I have discussed that (concept of west coast referee) and I really don’t see any differences, at least in our particular styles. I really don’t see it! One time, for example, if I have an opportunity to talk fighters out of a clinch instead of pushing them, that’s what I’ll do, but Jack has implemented that. I don’t really see a difference in styles. We’ve discussed it, and I think our positioning is the same, our use of verbal commands is the same and I really don’t see a difference. If you were to say to me Jesse, I see west coast ref do A, and I see East coast ref do B, then maybe I can explain the difference, but as a blanket statement, I don’t see any difference.

JW: So where did the concept come from?

So refereeing assignments are very parochial meaning you have to be a California resident to work in California. A referee must be a resident of Nevada to work in Nevada. Now I was very fortunate to be assigned to a California fight. That was the first time in 25 years that an east coast referee worked a west coast fight and that was of course Andre Ward and Chad Dawson in 2012. So I think it comes from the fact that the referees apply their trade in their individual states the majority of the time. Now recently, there are tri-state licenses. There are now referees that are licensed in New York, New Jersey and Pennsylvania, for example, Gary Rosato and myself. Now that’s a relatively new concept. I only think the basis for style comes from the fact that refs generally work in their own states.

JW: One of the things fans generally love about you is the fact that you don’t make the show about you. You make it about the fighters and you let them fight about as much as they can before you intervene. How did you develop this style?

Well, when I was coming up, I was then, and still am now, a member of the Atlantic City Police Athletic League and I would go there to train and I’d watch what fighters go through. Initially it was the amateur fighters, and this is in the late 70’s, then casino gaming, Jesse, came to New Jersey and immediately fights began to be scheduled.

I saw the effort that these fighters put in, day in and day out. They would come in from their jobs and work through the night. Some would get up at four in the morning and run the Atlantic City Boardwalk to get their road work in. I just saw how much effort they put in, and I said, I am going to give them every opportunity to resolve the fight among themselves. Let them determine their own outcome. The least intervention is the best for me. Unlike any other sport Jes, there’s no timeout. You can’t rethink your stoppage. Once you waive it, you can’t say “oops,” and unwaive it. So you must be very careful when you go in and… you know… I call it loss of presence. I try to allow a fighter every effort to proceed.

Not to be fooled by a series of punches that don’t land. It’s commonly referred to in the gym as “Shoe Shine.” One offensive fighter may throw 16 punches, but only two land, but with the volume, many referees might see it and think “uh oh, I better get in.” It looks like an onslaught, but in actuality, nothing’s landing. So, I perfected that aspect of refereeing, I think from my amateur days, and also for my concern that I allow the fighters to let them decide their bout. It’s their bout. Let them do their best to decide without intervention

JW: Let me ask you Steve, because you are obviously a huge fan of boxing. I know that you did everything you could to be a part of the sport. You earned your way in. Is there a thrill in refereeing a match? What causes that thrill for you?

Jes, you hit the nail on the head. Refereeing is boxing without pain. You are right there. To be in with Tito Trinidad, Miguel Cotto, Bernard Hopkins, to see every phase of execution, and recently to watch the artistry of Triple G, a master of cutting off the ring. To watch it develop. To watch one fighter assert their will and skill over the other fighter is absolutely thrilling. It’s the last vestage between fighter A and fighter B. To be in front of that, and to position yourself… the more skill and the higher the level the better. For example, the greater the event, the more time you have to observe because the fighters are in there doing their business.

There are some fighters, who are greater fighters that I haven’t had to touch in 12 rounds. It’s all verbal. They know when to break; they know what they’re doing. You can actually see them implement their game plan. It’s an absolute thrill to be in the ring with fighters of that magnitude, or any magnitude for that matter.
Even in a four (round fight), Jesse, I learn something every fight I do. Some move, some way to get closer to the action, I’ll try to perfect it even more. Even in a four, a six or an eight. Listen, every fight is very important. You have to be on top of your game in every aspect. Some are much more important than others and you have to be totally honed in and make sure you’re in the appropriate position at all times.

Now, there’s an additional thrill, when getting in the ring for Trinidad vs. Hopkins, and it’s the first major event after 9/11. You know, the historic aspect of that event, coming 18 days after the devastation, and in a packed Garden, it is the most electric atmosphere I’ve ever been in. I had to just keep my composure. I just remember telling myself to take a deep breath, because I didn’t want to be overwhelmed by the events that led up to that. Then the bout met all expectations. So there’s a thrill being in, and on some occasions… I can imagine what Kenny Bayless felt like being in with Mayweather and Pacquiao, although Hopkins vs. Trinidad was a much better fight (both laugh). I can imagine how Kenny felt! This is the bout the world has been waiting for. So, in my instance that makes it more of a thrill. I’ve been involved in other major events around the world with historic connotations. There’s a thrill in addition to the athletic thrill or the thrill of actually refereeing the bout. You see what I’m saying?

JW: Absolutely. I’m sitting here listening to you talk about it and just from that I’m getting a rush.

You might get another rush! How about a gentleman by the name of Nelson Mandela who’s just released and he attends a fight in a stadium of 25,000 in Johannesburg. This is before he’s elected president, and I’m doing a WBO Lightweight title between (two fighters look up. Look what heights Mr. Mandela reached. You know what I’m saying? That was his first event after being released from 26 years of incarceration. The circumstances leading up to the event were incredible. These are items that truly stand out. I just want you to understand the magnitude of the other roles that play a part. The thrill is amazing.

JW: Think about the cost of a seat for Mayweather vs. Pacquiao, then you think about Bayless being right there in the middle of the action with the best seat in the house. Not only was it the best seat, but he got paid!

I guarantee you he didn’t enjoy it! You’re so wired and so ready from all the anticipation. You want to be right on time to make sure you implement the rules without any mishap. You know when he enjoyed it? The next week, on the couch with the family while watching it on replay (is when he enjoyed it).

JW: That’s one thing I’ve noticed watching fights. Boxing is probably the only sport where the ref isn’t objectively or passively doing his job. You can see the emotion in a boxing ref’s eyes. When a guy gets hit hard, you can see the ref’s reaction on his or her face. There’s nothing objective about that. It seems like you’re emotionally vested in it.

Well said. Beautiful placement of words. You are vested. I gotta watch because I have a mic on, and I’ll go “Oh wow!” or “What a shot” to myself I go “uh-oh,” because it’s just the beginning of the end. Then I move in… I see the presence go… you are emotionally vested. Then you ask “will they come back?” What time is it in the round? Will they make it through? Then there’s that cherished minutes rest. You know you’ve got your pulse on it Jes. That’s a wonderful term. You are emotionally vested. That’s exactly what it is in every aspect.

JW: Now taking that in to consideration, I’ve heard you say that you want to give the fighter every opportunity, and in that respect, you’re looking out for the fighter’s best interest. On the other side of that coin you might have a guy who’s taking a beating, and you also have to be emotionally vested in his safety. Is it hard managing the conflict internally between knowing when to let a guy decide his own career and then having to step in and rescue him from himself?

Well put again. There’s two particular aspects here Jes. First aspect, refereeing is similar to the beer commercial. The major art is knowing when to say when. Okay? That’s number one.
Number two, I quote Ron Scott Stevens the former Chairman of the New York State Athletic Commission who said “the referee does not want to take the drama out of the fight until the fans get what they pay for and see what they come to see, but you cannot risk the health, welfare and safety of the fighter.”

The art of refereeing is judgment and movement. It’s about being in the right place at the right time, and the ability to get in there when necessary. Fighters are the most highly trained, highly skilled athletes in the world in my opinion. If a fighter has the ability to defend his or herself, and their hands are positioned to fend off the blows, I’ll let it continue. The recuperative powers, this is very important Jes… If you said to me, in your 33 years in the middle, what’s the most surprising or… the major quality is the ability of the fighter, a well conditioned fighter, to recover. I’ve had fighters on many occasions look like they were out before they hit the ground, and yet they were able to get up. I thought “how in the world are they going to get up before the ten count?” Where is their ability to get on their feet? That is the most amazing aspect. If somebody hit me the way I see these people get caught, I’d be out for four weeks.

Somehow, they have enough presence of mind, i.e. Kelly Pavlik, holding Jermain Taylor to survive and that is the classic example for when to let a fight continue. He was GONE in round two. He got up, he was able to recompose himself and come back and he became the unified middleweight champion in round seven. His whole life changed! I mean, it’s amazing. He’s now champion of the world, and he had a great run until he ran into a guy by the name of Bernard Hopkins. So, there’s no conflict there, because I’m confident in my ability to know when to say when. Now they’re trained, they assume the risk, they know that there’s gonna be times when they’re in trouble. When it’s up to me, there’s a fine line between a stoppage and letting a guy continue.

JW: You’re obviously a huge fan, and I can tell that there are certain guys you are a fan of. You mentioned having the opportunity to see Triple G perform his art and do what he does. It is an amazing thing, but when you get in the ring and you have a guy that you just can’t wait to see, is there ever a conflict of interest of having that guy be your favorite fighter? Is there a conflict in trying to not play favorites? Is it a conflict to stay objective when you are a fan of one guy?

No. When I’m outside the ring I’m the biggest fan. I’m absolutely the biggest fan. Let me tell you something Jes, You, “Bad” Brad (Berkwitt), people involved in the media and the fight fans are very educated. The slightest favoritism, they can pick up. That’s never played a role, because I get in and it’s fighter A and it’s fighter B. I have no rooting interest, nothing. It’s never a challenge to me. I want the best person to win. I’ve been fortunate enough to be in the right place at the right time. I’ve been in with fighters on successive occasions just by luck of the draw or assignment from the commission. I’m glad I get the job and can repeat the performance, but when I’m in there, it’s fighter A and fighter B.

JW: One thing you said that stands out to me is that the boxing fan is very well educated. They aren’t passively angry like fans of other sports. Real fans know the ins and outs and aren’t easily fooled. That being said, with a fairly well educated group of fans, have you ever had issues where somebody might have threatened you or approached you negatively after a fight?

Usually there’s no yes or no, but in this case, absolutely not. Do you know why Jes? They sense what you said at the top of the interview. It’s about the fighter. I’ve had no one ever question my integrity in the ring. I’m very fortunate. I’ve seen them disappointed. To me, the best compliment that I get, and this is right on your point Jesse, is not from the winning corner. They will congratulate anybody. They’re in euphoria. It’s when the ring clears, sometimes even after on the way out of the venue. I see the losing corner, and they’ll say “ref, you gave my kid every chance.” I mean in every aspect. I have never pulled a quick bout. I utilize the rules to the nth degree. With a cut, in the case of Pawel Wolak vs. Delvin Rodriguez, his eye looked like an orange. Fight of the year in New York, and I’m just calling the doctor, calling the doctor and Wolak bullshit his way through. After the fight he said he didn’t see shit.

JW: How do you think he BS’d that?

No! He would just go “one, two, three, three ya!” He just bullshit his way through. “I can see doc I can see!” My point being that I won’t stop a fight on a cut unless I have doctor approval. The cut men in the corner appreciate that. You follow what I’m saying? That’s why you won’t get any “geez you stopped it too quick ref,” because I’ll implement the rules, and I’ll call in the doctor.

In 33 years Jes, I’ve never been confronted, but the corners have come to me and said thank you. That’s the best compliment, when the losing corner comes up and says “thank you for the shot.” Again, it’s the knowledge. They knew their kid was done. They know it! What I’ll do Jes, if a fighter’s hurt, and 9 out of 10 would stop, I’ll allow the fighter to get up, and while I’m cleaning the gloves I’ll say “the next significant shot you’re out of here.” So they know. I’ve done that repeatedly. Then the commission goes “you know Steve, you could’ve stopped it on the first knockdown.” I said “I know commission, but I wanted to give him an opportunity.” I’ve been fortunate to have been able to implement that. If they walk to me, and they didn’t wiggle, didn’t stumble, I say “the next shot, I’m taking you out of here.” That also answers your question that it is preventative, they know what I’m going to do. It’s no surprise when the second shot come and I jump in. The corners recognize it, because the corners are the bravest people in the arena. They’ll send their fighter out when he’s shaky… you follow me Jes? They’re the tough guys. They’re not taking the shot. So I let them know “one more, you’re out of here.”

I guess you’ve noticed that every answer is a story! Be prepared!

JW: The corners job is to win, but when it comes to a fighter’s welfare, you have to live with that decision. You have to live with it if somebody gets hurt. Has there ever been an instance where a guy got hurt on your watch where you could’ve done something different, and you regret it now?

No. It’s luck of the draw. God has blessed me that I’ve never had any real serious or, God forbid, tragic instances and that’s purely by virtue of the boxing Gods because I may have been scheduled for a fight, I ended up going somewhere else and another ref went in. That’s when there was an incident. So it’s not that I couldn’t have been placed in that situation, but I have been blessed not to have been put in that situation.

JW: I’ve heard you say that several times. You say it’s luck and you say you’re blessed, but maybe it’s you. Maybe you’re just a good ref. Maybe you’ve just done your job very well.

I have, but that contrasts the fact that I let them hang in. As you say, I’m very much a student of the game. To go to your point, there’s a background. As a young referee, I attended a WBA convention, and it was the only one ever held in my hometown of Atlantic City. This is the early 90’s. I was a junior guy, but they invited me on the podium as a courtesy because it was my hometown. You had some major leaguers on the podium: Mills Lane, Richard Steele… the big names of that era.

The best referee in Europe at that time was John Coyle. They asked the question “in your preparation, what do you do relative to knowledge of the fighter?” So John Coyle gets up and says “I don’t want to know anything about the fighter.” “I don’t want any preconceived notions, I don’t want anything.” “I want it to be a brand new, clear picture of A and B with no preconceived notion in any way, and I’ll make my judgment as the fight unfolds.” Well I’m listening, and the president asks “well Steve as the youngest on the panel, what’re your thoughts?” I said “with all due respect to my colleague from the United Kingdom, I’m just the opposite.” When I receive an assignment, if I’m lucky enough to know what bout I’m covering, I study the fighter in every aspect. Do they cut? Can they take a shot? Have they recovered?

I’m not interested in who they beat. I’m interested in who they lost to, if there are any losses on the record. That’s the first item I look at. I know you ran off a string of 20 victories, but when you’re 20-1, who is the one? By analyzing that aspect, that has allowed me to be on time in my career. I know if they can recover. I know if they can take a shot. I know if they can recover. Bronco McKart, I know he has a cut, but I also know that he can coagulate and he can fight with a cut. So I allow him to go forward with “Superman” Davis and he won the WBC middleweight title. Then I saw him and he said “thank God it was you, because it was anyone else it would’ve been stopped.” I told the doctor to give him one more shot, and he said “alright Steve, you watch him.” I did, I watched him win a title.

These are items that, I worked on them, and then I’ve been able to put them into play in major events. So I accept your complement that I am a good ref, and it comes from study and conditioning. I remember when Larry Hazzard took over New Jersey (Athletic Commission) in his first stint in 1980, he called a conference and… we all had jobs at that time, I was the City Prosecutor of Atlantic City and Frank Cappuccino was General Manager of Wholesome Bakery. Hazard said “I know you all have lives outside of boxing, but if you think refereeing is a part time job, and you cannot devote your life to your preparation, the door that says exit is where you belong.” I thought that way before I got that, and that just reaffirmed it. I did my civilian jobs to allow me to prep to be a referee. I’m a referee. That’s it. My other aspects, outside of family of course, are to enable me to do that. You have two human lives in your hands Jes. You’ve gotta be a referee, and there’s no off switch. I had a bad night? I can’t have a bad night. I can never have a bad night, ever. I’m very fortunate. There’s a phrase “good luck, good skills, you put it all together.”

JW: you’re still actively refereeing, correct?

I am still actively refereeing. I did take a position which has lessened my ring time. I am the “PBC on NBC” Boxing Rules Consultant. I’ve worked with their broadcast team, it was very exciting. PBC is in action, but I’m awaiting the NBC schedule. So I’m not as active as I’d like to be, but it’s on my own volition.

JW: If there was one rule in the book that you could get rid of adapt, or even add, what would it be?

Well I’ll tell you. I would like to see, in order to alleviate quick stoppages, I’d like for the standing eight count to come back. To me, that was an excellent assessment tool. When properly utilized, it gave me the ability to see if a fighter could go on. To me, it helped avoid a quick stop.

What’s the problem with implementing the eight count? To one fighter, it’s counted as a knockdown, so the fighter that you give the benefit of the count too loses a point, but it may give him the opportunity to continue. So the negative is you’re only prolonging the end result and you should be able to make the decision, but any tool that allows me to assess the situation is one more toll in my bag that I can use.

JW: Just for kicks, if you could step in for one more fight, could be made or not, what fight would you want to be in the ring for?

I don’t know if a catch weight is possible… Canelo and Triple G. If that’s not done, the one that’s more likely because of the weight, I have a great respect for and loved working with him. S.O.G…. S.O.G. vs. Triple G. Put me in with Andre Ward and Gennady Golovkin and I’ll be a happy camper.

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